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Anita Hill; Madeleine Kunin; Hanna Rosin Education. (2012) The 2012 Boston Book Festival Panel, 'What's Next for Women?'

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Us 11, Sweden 7, Washington 5, Calvin 4, America 3, Madeline Kunin 3, Mitt Romney 2, Bethany 2, Romney 2, Norway 2, Jacqueline 1, Limbaugh 1, Sandra 1, Barack Obama 1, Robert Kennedy 1, Sandra Fluke 1, Ann Romney 1, Fema 1, Minimill 1, Wbur 1,
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  CSPAN    Book TV    Anita Hill; Madeleine Kunin; Hanna Rosin  Education.   
   (2012) The 2012 Boston Book Festival Panel, 'What's Next for...  

    December 1, 2012
    11:00 - 11:59am EST  

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>> thank you very much. first and foremost if you don't watch the show will give a shameless plug, 3:00 p.m. monday through friday on 90.9, or w b u r.org, very proud to be a presenting partner for boston's festival because it brings thousands of us together on a day like this in investigation, exploration, love of learning and literature, a natural combination for the city of boston at wbur so i am proud to be here especially for this panel. before i introduce the three amazing women who are sitting to
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my right a couple quick reminders. one is cellphones if you have already been given that reminder, please turn them off or at the very least silence. we are in the smart phone generation. i ask you, urged you to resist the word to tweet or facebook or look stuff up during this panel. great conversation is the focus. this is being recorded for broadcast on c-span and after the panel today at 12:15 there will be a book signing where all three of these women will be available behind the lectern to sign copies of their books. a reminder on all those fronts. without further ado, please let me introduce to you three
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incredible women. first, governor and ambassador madeline kunin from 1985. [applause] >> to 1991, she was governor of vermont and later united states ambassador to switzerland and liechtenstein and is author this book "the new feminist agenda: defining the next revolution for women, work, and family". then professor anita hill, professor of social policy of law and women's studies at brandeis university and author of this book, "reimaging equality: stories of gender, race, and finding home". welcome to you as well. [applause] >> and hanna rosin is senior editor of the atlantic and founder of double x, the women's section, and author of "the end
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of men and the rise of women," hanna rosin, welcome. >> we start with a couple minutes from each of you. a brief summary or a story from the book that you think best encapsulates the ideas you are presenting in these three great works. let's start with madeline kunin. >> thank you very much. great to see what there and to be here with my sister authors. what is next for women? my career, my political life really started with low women's movement in the 70s. we had great expectations, some of which have been met. the very fact that women today represent 60% of undergraduates, you see your friends, daughters, granddaughters becoming doctors, lawyers, things my generation couldn't do. women are in the work force like
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never before, and the traditional family of dad goes out to work, mom stands at the doorway of wearing the pinafore if anybody remembers up enough for and waved goodbye as these two perfect children stand by her side. usually the boy is a little taller than the girl. that family portrait has been replaced. applies now to 20% of the population. so a lot has been achieved. i expected has not been achieved is roe vs. wade would be the law of the land without much controversy after all these years, the misogyny rate would be under control, that women make 30% of the congress, 17%,
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up a lot of statistics. the biggest challenge women face today is how to take advantage of all these new opportunities and be able to work while providing for their families, whether it is children, the elderly or the disabled. that is what i think is the next revolution we have to create to have policies that the rest of the world already has and american women do not, whether it is paid, maternity, family leave, access to affordable quality child care, whether it is workplace flexibility, until we feel out this conundrum of how to combine family and work, how to enable women to make a significant contribution to society, while still loving and caring for their children, that is what we have to do.
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it can't be women alone. it has to be men, has to be labor, has to be the elderly, we have to form a new coalition to take this next giant step to make it possible for women to do what they really are meant to do, to b. contributors to society but also provide loving and save care for their families. >> thank you, madeline kunin. [applause] >> when i first started riding "reimaging equality: stories of gender, race, and finding home" it was precipitated in part by the housing market collapse and a few years, a couple years before a piece in the boston globe about women and sub prime
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lending spree that banks were engaging in initiating sub prime loan that people qualifying for conventional loans and when i was thinking about the panel today, what is next for women, i have to say last real conversation about what is next for women or women in support of the public conversation came a few weeks ago when governor romney, the presidential candidate, mentioned the binders of women that he received on his desk to helped him populate his cabinet. and i started thinking about what that binders of women symbolized to me. it was as though governor romney had allowed in -- to find women who were these exotic creatures who were hiding out in places where they were not really
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obvious. in some ways i actually felt his pain in some ways because when i started writing about the housing market, i found that there was very little conversation about the impact this was having on women. it was this -- as though women were invisible in this conversation. we talked about it first in terms of neighborhoods. we talked about it in terms of color. we haven't really started talking about it in terms of women and there were a lot of numbers that supported a conversation that was specifically how some prime lending and the housing market in particular was relevant to women's experiences. i can give you some of those numbers but what i found was that when we started, when i
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started doing the research, what was most important was not simply the numbers of how women had been targeted for sub prime loans when they qualified for conventional loans about how women were more likely because of zoning sub prime loans more likely to end up in foreclosure, how women were in fact more likely to be at risk of housing insecurity because women, especially single women, heads of household were more likely to spend more than 50% of their income to keep a roof over their family's head. all those numbers were compelling but what i also found very compelling about the stories if i did my research was women were going into the market, they were not simply looking for housing, they were
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looking for a home. and the public discourse about the housing is about the housing market and that really missed what was at stake for so many people. instead of looking for at the housing market as though we were sort of capturing part of the market, when we think about equality, what women were looking for was a place for growth, they were looking for a place for personal security, they were looking for place that allowed them to be empowered to build their dreams, and to build on their own dreams for the dreams of their families. it wasn't as though they were just looking for a piece of the economic market or even a piece of the housing market and i found that to be true not only for women but for some men as
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well but the women's stories that i found really tell it in a compelling way and i tell the story about my great-grandmother who moved from -- actually was a slave and eventually moved from her slave cabin even after she was emancipated she was living in a slave cabin, move to her own home and what that symbolized to her, the freedom of ownership but not just in an economic sense but the self-sufficiency and the opportunity to become a part of a community that it symbolized. where does that lead us today? what i think it does in terms of women in the binders as well as all policymakers need to understand is the women should not be looked at to populate any
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kind of -- whether it is home or the workplace or government position, simply so that they can go in and replicate the same stories that get hold about that space so we can think of politics in the same way so the gifts we have women's bodies in those positions that if that is what i am trying to encourage, a different conversation, a different conversation about what it means to be in a space, how we think about a space or a neighborhood or a community, how we think about the role of the home that is more than an economic unit. in terms of policy, if we continue for example to think of a housing market as simply a measure of our economic growth,
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we are going to miss the real meaning of those various units, the home, for people. we can't simply think about it in terms of economic growth because that encourages us to make homes more and more expensive because it is good for the economy, without thinking about what it does for those of us who are looking to find homes in america. [applause] >> hanna rosin. >> these guys did a great job laying out the issues so i will just allow story but before i do that i want to say because i am from washington and because it is halloween and because i have three children, all of them love to trick or treat our will report that the most popular costume that has come up lately is binders full of women. what this halloween costume looks like is you put your arms
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in the binder, it is not a jack in the box but jacqueline in the box and jacqueline pops out of a folder in the halloween costume. who said we were dull in washington? we are very creative. i am going to tell the story that inspired me to write my book. this began in 2009. the book is based on an atlantic story that came out in 2010 and basically i had been vacationing in a town for a long time which was a prosperous working-class town and one year i went there a bit seemed there are not many men are round. i was seeing him in church or the fair grounds or driving down the street ritter trucks doing construction. this was the height of the housing collapse that anita hill talked-about. men were finding a hard time. we talked about the man session and loss of manufacturing jobs and i became curious about this.
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i had actually read a novel, half are far, have been pressing working-class novel at the same time in which the men had literally disappeared from the town. it was a novel about manliness and masculinity but i had it in my mind when i was at this town so i became very curious and i ran into this women in the supermarket. i told a story in the introduction. her name is bethany. it was just her lucky day that she ran into me who is an extremely nosy reporters whose head was full of questions about something and i got to asking her in my usual way nosy questions like that is your kid, who is the dad? why wouldn't you ask this in the supermarket? she was very chatty and we got to talking and she and her daughter told me there was a dad named calvin, why don't you live with him?
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she said the same thing i heard so many times in my reporting which is rather insulting but i will set a way. it was some version of we don't live with him because he would be just another mouth to feed. she said in a different way the talked about him like another child she would have to support. so i didn't give this up but i asked for calvin's phone-number. i am married and everything, i just wanted to know more about calvin. i called up calvin and over time i became invested in their story and i am sure many of you are familiar with the old lady's home journal column which was 3 purpose as the video series to great effect, like a wonderful -- so i became -- i got into this marriage be saved mode where i was trying to help him -- and it is overinvested the
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way reporters do and and it was dysfunctional. he would call me up from the 711 because he doesn't know how to work with a microwave. why am i telling this story? out where the light bulb went off for me, reporting in i was going down a wrong path. and take his place at the seat of the table, the way it was, why was that not going to happen, something profound had shifted away bethany's thought of herself, she was in college at the time. and struggling -- a measure of independence and ownership she had over her space that was i thought it felt to me very different and so there was no way he was going to walk in and
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take the provider or breadwinner role he had before and that is the human spark that led down this research. was in 2009 as i said something for happening they were the majority of the work force which was unprecedented, there was a big study that came out about breadwinner wives who were leading pro-family is. so i started to think of it in economic terms and in the two years since i wrote the book i started to think of minimill at the day's emotional terms like was happening to american marriages at happening to young women in college and that is where the book grew out of. we will talk about this more but i want to say what it is not is a feminist manifesto. the stories are heartbreaking. there are two story is going on simultaneously. one is a story of struggle and the other is a story of unprecedented switch in gender roles.
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is not delusional. i live in washington, i know what is going on with women in power. it is our conversation i have all the time and i hope we will have more of and what i hope to come out of "the end of men and the rise of women" is we ship all men to the moon and never see them again because i like my husband and two sons and father and brother, but it is more i imagine there will be similar views about this, expanding our imagination about gender roles and what men can do and women can do and as my son who thinks the title of my book is the meanest thing he ever heard and says that to me all the time, if he grows up in a world in which he can work four days a week or take care of kids or have a lot more options without anybody passing him on the playground at 3:00 and thinking what is wrong with that guy? then that will be a better world
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for him. [applause] >> thank you very much. so obviously much more to talk about the and we can cram into half an hour but i want to remind everyone in the last 15 or 20 minutes there will be audience q&a as well. people have microphones to take questions from folks in the audience. if you could wait until the microphone gets you c-span is recording, so we can capture your voice asking the question and also as i pepper you with questions feel free to talk with each other as well. forgive me in advance, if it is not a famine in characteristic, trying to move things along because you're three books present an entire universe of issues for women in the twenty-first century, it deserves a robust read. >> let's start off with something in a way all three of you touched on not directly, and
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that is the incredible contest between the visibility of women in 2012, we are hearing about 50% of the work force in some areas is 60% of college graduates, many households in which women are the primary breadwinners, and numbers are impressive. there is a visibility in the workplace and at home and in society and at the same time, anita hill, you used this term, the relative invisibility of women as well which i think a lot of people, a lot of women feel that contradiction in fear of their own lives on a day-to-day basis. anyone who wants to start, how is it with women ascending the economic, political and social power maintain an overall invisibility? >> we are most invisible at the tables where decisions are made
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about our lives. that is the area where we really have work to do. there is a new world economic forum report that came out the other day that worldwide, 20% of political power. if we are concerned about access to contraception, if we are concerned about equal pay for equal work we have to be at those tables. you watch the news any night or open the newspaper, the huddles of leaders are largely male. you walk into a public building, whether it is the state house up the street here or the fortress on the walls are male, so women do not see themselves reflected in the halls of power. you mentioned maybe we shouldn't do the exact way, of precedent,
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but the short-term, you have to do two things, you have to reinvent how power is exercised and what power looks like but at the same time you have to get their which means you have to play by the existing rules. i like to quote a phrase, if you are not at the table, you are on the menu. [laughter] [applause] >> we saw that happening in the discussion about access to affordable contraception in the health care bill. the washington--george washington university law school student couldn't testify before a panel of men when she finally found a democratic committee to testify why access to contraception is important and then rush limbaugh gave her the claim to fame when he called her
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a slut. somebody sent me -- thought i wouldn't wear it. >> can i -- having been called a slut -- [laughter and applause] >> let me just say part of the problem is even with sandra fluke was allowed to testify, it made many of us very happy and proud that she was able to testify, what she is still coming up against is this dominance, this fema or story that is out there prevailing that these groups of people who are not or may not be listening to have the authority to decide what happens to us.
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they define what the parameters are and what the meaning of contraception is and that is what rush limbaugh was injecting in this conversation. we define women's a quality, we define what contraception means and i am going to define it as being a foot. our stories even when we are sitting at the table are always perceived as stories of outsiders. if outsiders or minorities or minimalized stories that are of minimal significance were always trying to change the whole narrative, to even say we belong at the table. than to change it to say we are the ones who should be defining what contraception means, what it means to have control over our bodies, what it means to us in terms of our future and what it means to the entire nation,
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that is part of the problem. we are not just coming against being in the conversation but we are coming against all of the structures that have been set up when we were not in of the conversation. that is part of what we need to change. >> i am sorry for interrupting. please respond as well, hanna rosin. i hear what you are saying that on the other hand women are not a monolithic. even though women -- >> that is why there needs to be more than one. >> as long as it is the right one. >> that is exactly my question. women in massachusetts are 51% of the electorate's. there is the opportunity through this civic duty of voting, depending on who you vote for, to put more women at the table
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of the power elite for example and yet because of the positive thing, women not being a monolith perhaps that change is not happening in the direction as fast as it should be. >> what is going on with the republican party on this issue is so interesting right now because it is not actually the same as it ever was. what seems different, i love your framing that you have to be at the table. the big difference is it was rush limbaugh and the rest of the party saying -- even though she didn't speak but they moved to the point where the republican party knows they have to do so and those people immediately and make -- even though they keep popping up. one in indiana, one here, back in the down. it is a hard cast. what is so interesting to me because i think about single motherhood a lot, one of the things i write about in the growth of single motherhood and -- most of the growth of single
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motherhood is in red states. that is what is interesting. the republican party is in a curious position right now where they're female public direct, possibly some connection between the avid pro-life position they have taken all these years and the incredible rise of single motherhood. ann romney won't even say single mother on stage. she will say women -- she will circle around it. women struggling and then she will say and the single father and i am like what? the single father? 25 single fathers and the million single mothers. i kind of watch them struggle around this issue. what are we going to -- how are we going to make sense of this world we have created? >> they both desperately getting women's votes and republicans
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shifting their positions in order to do so but that is where women do have power in this country, the gender gap, that is not to be forgotten. hopefully they won't just try to win us over every four years. >> if i may, to a certain degree it is relatively easy because of the issues the republican party keep coming up against, to offer criticism of them, eagle opportunity credit, let me just say in the second presidential debate, the town hall style one i thought president barack obama's weakest moment was when the young woman stood up and asked him about equal pay for women. he rightfully talked-about passing though lily ledbetter pay act, then abandoned that line of thinking and talked about the economy. the same moment thereafter, mitt romney had the binders of women came up. what got me about that moment
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was the democrats and the president could point to this one act, this one piece of legislation, he didn't talk about more than that because there isn't that much more. it is easy to say republicans, women, not such an easy stew, but overall it is something and plain and simple and measurable as pay, no one in the political spectrum across-the-board has done much to -- besides you. [applause] >> let me just say there is pending legislation which republicans have blocked in the house, that is the third paycheck act. he could have brought that up. you need that second half to make easier, more practical to demand fare paying in the courts that going back to the binders which is the favorite topic,
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when i was governor, i got a lot of women applicants for jobs because it was the first time most people's acquaintance that there was a woman governor, so mitt romney had to go outside his network to find some women. for that much i gave him credit even though he was given that binder by a group of female advocates ahead of the election. the other thing we have got to look at is women's resumes. if we are really going to have women in administrative positions, in the private sector, the public sector, we have to recognize that they are different, at least to my generation. there may be blank spots when you are raising children, that is a very precious time. you know what is going on in your community, so a man looking
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at a resume will favor a resume that looks pretty much like his. as a women, when i interviewed a woman who went to law school after she raised her kids, i immediately understood what that resume met even though she undersold herself in the interview. she got the job. if we are going to have women in places of authority we can't always expecting to be just like men even in their life story, the question of qualified, they may be more qualified by having a slightly different resume, their experience, and let them do a better job. >> i heard this story, a woman who worked three days 0 week, best employee, having hired people myself i understand this logic, the women never asked for a raise because she feels grateful that somebody let her
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work three days week and i will set money aside for her every year but i will give it to somebody else and she won't ask for it and a lot of people are asking for a. women are in a position because each of them, i am torn about the kind of pace sub because our biggest problem and this is a deeper part of we are talking about, can't be solved by a legislation. the scandinavian countries only deepen the gap by passing extensive maternity leave because what the women complain about now is like you lose a year of your career because of social pressure whether you want it or not. we are not even at the point we can have this conversation because in botswana and one other country that doesn't have the attorney leave. we are a little bit behind. the cultural problems are the ones that i feel are the ones -- this is why we -- it hasn't been that long. we made and believable strides
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but we are at a difficult point. >> i agree with parts of what you are saying. it seems to me there are a couple different problems. one is let's just say someone has a resume and it looks different and the sense that whatever the difference is is always seen as negative. that is a cultural problem we need to get over. how is it that whatever we see as a difference in women, whether it is women or people of color is always viewed as the negative, so i can i even believe mitt romney when he went with in his work place that he had not at least seen women in business that might have been able to take positions -- >> he had a private equity
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world. one or two. >> especially at that time. the automatic presumption that what those differences are should be looked at as negative rather than adding value. the other thing we have to recognize is even when our resumes are the same, there is a tendency to look at women as left. we have seen that in a study done about scientists at yale where they had scientists reviewing the documentation of young scientists and regardless, they had people with the same qualifications on paper being evaluated by both men and women and both groups, the men and
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women evaluated the exact same thing with a woman's name attached to it. it got a lower evaluation. they were less likely to be chosen to be the mentes of the scientists, they were less likely to be chosen to give -- in terms of their pay, if you were a signing the pay, women were chosen to get lesser pay. there are some real cultural issues going on in terms of bias against women whether it is women who see people different for women who look the same. we need to confront that. we need to understand that and and it and see where that is coming from and unpack that in ways that we go to the policy issues. when mitt romney did tell his story he told about a lot -- the
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story of how he treated women in the workplace and what happened. he raised story about child care, told a story about his employees who said i have to go home to feed my children, he told a story about flexible work schedules, whether or not you should have that flexible work schedule for someone, a family women or men who needs to go pick up their children at school or fix dinner, he actually when he talked about the binders, he talked about whether or not we should have affirmative-action so that we go out and find these women. he talked about equal pay. or did he? he said i brought these women in but he didn't say whether or not he paid them the same as he paid the men. and if he did, then he believes in equal pay.
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but it is more than i personally believe in equal pay and you personally and that will all get us to eat quality. the question is whether or not that should be a national policy. >> i just wanted to go back to the point about sweden. if i were 25 and about to have a baby i would rather live in sweden. you can have child-care, you can have family leave for a year. the only disadvantage about these policies is that sometimes paid family leave will discriminate against women, but in the nordic countries and some other countries they are providing maternity care which is the answer. either use it or lose it. increasingly they're taking advantage of this. this is a question of public policy. changing the culture for store
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change the law. we have to do both because even new jersey and california have paid maternity leave. the only states that do so. a lot of people don't take advantage because they are afraid they won't be considered good workers. we have to get to a place in this country where we value the child, where we value the mother. one consequence of our present lack of policies is we have in the united states of america fis child poverty rate in developed countries at 22%. what has that got to do with family work policies? the best answer is still a paycheck. very hard for women to work without a network of support on issues like good affordable child care, workplace flexibility and paid medical
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leave. we have to put the policies in place at the same time as we change the culture. >> trying to decide how deep into scandinavia we should go. i would prefer sweden to norway because sweden -- i am totally serious, sweden has done something no other country has done. they have forced paternity leave as well as maternity leave. if i had my way we would skip phase 1 and go straight to the things that are gender universal, namely if we have maternity leave we also have paternity leave and talk about child care, so we try to do this in as neutral a way as possible. the problem with the american workplace is the penalty women pay more often than men because women have the lion's share of child care but the american work force punishs you severely for doing things for your family. not in every sector but many sectors do that and if you're a
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man they punish you worse. try to be an american man who asks for paternity leave you are almost worse off than american women. >> i have read that in some countries that offer paternity leave men don't take it. >> in sweden it is difficult not to. they're doing a weird experiment that works wonderfully. >> in the interest of moving along and leaving time for audience questions i did want to share two brief things, talking about women not asking for raises, doing a part-time m.b.a. and in my negotiations class the most popular paper is actually one that goes deep into this exact issue ended is titled women never ask. they don't ask for raises or additional leave or promotions etc.. has all manner of sub positions as to why but among men and women in my class i found it to
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be the most transformative paper and also in terms of i recently read a georgetown study that showed one measure in terms of lifetime earnings on average and again on average means a very broad brush, in terms of lifetime earning a woman has to have a ph.d. to have equivalent lifetime earning of a man who has a bachelor's or master's degree and what seems to matter is in a world with more than 50% of women as the work force -- >> professors make more money than everybody else. >> it is interesting that that paper you talk about is important and stands out and is compelling but i wonder if you would ask the question of different way. you have the man and woman in a workplace and the woman is not asking for a race and the man is
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not asking for a raise, would they and -- with the employer automatically give the race to the man because after all he deserves it? there are different ways we need to think about this, what happens differential the to men and women? will men get it even though they don't ask for it and women who don't ask for it, you are the problem, your other reason you're not getting a raise, there's a little bit of that going on. we told you. it is not because we are discriminating against women that they're not getting raises but they don't ask for a. if they ask for it we give it to them and i am not sure that i buy that. >> let me apply that to politics. one reason we have such a dismal record of women in politics compared to the rest of the world, we rank 90th out of 168 countries in the percentage of women. women also don't announce
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themselves to run for office. study after study has shown women have to be asked to run. wake up in the mirror and say i can run for the united states senate. [laughter] a woman will be coming her hair in the mirror and say if i run for the school board i have to take three more courses and the desire to be credentialed while good in many ways and that is why the ph.d. women are very specific about what they think they need and what we have to learn is that we can transfer knowledge from one area to another and wheat and learn on the job and we can live on the edge of where you go. that is what i did when i became governor. i said how my going to do this?
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you learn and you have to trust your own potential plus a lot of people around you that fink you are great. >> i want to tell my favorite story about this which is i was interviewing people at google and trying to recruit more female executives and computer programmers and they did this survey of their applicants and came up with this amazing strategy which was if you advertise the job and listed physically what one needed for that job, eight things you needed to know for the job they realized they got far fewer, what is the connection between the eight things and the women applying? women look at the list and they are like can't do three or five or eight, i am not qualified. men but that it and say i can do it four. i am on it. it is the credential in thing. >> we are closing in on time but
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i want to ask one room last question and i will and hope we can get some brief answers and return to audience questions but people start raising their hands and gravitate towards the microphone that would be great. i am opening a can of worms as my last question and i apologize, one thing i noticed, there have been a flood of books about this issue of what is next for women and by virtue of the necessity of having to have something before you write a book etc. i wonder how much are we doing a disservice to the true complexity and diversity of what womanhood is in the united states right now because a lot of the books deal with issues to my opinion that matter will be to those women who may be upper-middle-class or college educator d'or affluent women. other books deal with -- you get
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what i am saying. diversity within what it means to be a modern day america women that oftentimes gets lost in the discussion when we just talk about women. how much does that matter? class and race are still important issues in united states, and may more powerful lead the final women and robert kennedy than the fact of being a woman? >> my generation, the women's movement was accused by the next generation of not being sensitive enough, that was upper-middle-class movement, not being sensitive enough to gay and lesbian or for women or women of color, and all those things to play a role, the press loves to divide us like the mommy wars, working women versus at home moms. the truth is most women go
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through different stages of life i had little memories of the brownies i baked and pickle vat pickled. every time you generalize about women you leave somebody help. we can't have the conversation unless we do. we have to be sensitive to. o women in upper management can negotiate paid maternity leave most of the time. when she is sick she can call in sick. when a lower income women wants leave or has a sick day, she can be fired on the spot because she has absolutely no power to negotiate anything. that is why we need laws like
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paid sick days that are known as earned the 6 days because we have to rely not just on who your boss is or how wellsick da have to rely not just on who your boss is or how well you can negotiate time off, it to be a basic fundamental right. some businesses they on their own but those who are left out are the most vulnerable and they are the ones that need the greatest opportunity. becomes a way of life that we respect families, grab back the phrase family values which should be about gun-control or same-sex marriage but really have values that value families. [applause] >> i am told we have ten minutes total and i would like to hear from both of you. >> let me say this. in this very room, in 1998 i was
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introduced by an individual that some of you might know, judge hidden bottom was a friend of mine and the mentor of mine known primarily after he stepped down as the race man. he told me i can never talked about race without talking about gender anymore. i made that commitment. when i hear we need gender neutral policies it reminds me how well race neutrality has and has not worked. i think we really need to be informed by all of these ways that we are seen as different. we need to take into account -- people say can you talk about gender without talking about race? i can't because i lived, both of them, i lived both of those
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experiences. for me when i am talking about the way i experiences, high am talking about both. so i think it is difficult to have that conversation. what we really have to avoid is assuming that we can't address the way we look at differences, that race has to from gender or that gender, all of us being women together has to trump a conversation about what it means to be a lesbian woman wore talking about women altogether has to trump talking about our differences as we age through life and the issues we confront throughout our lifetime. what i find problematic, i don't think we have done a good job of
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it. you are absolutely right. the only thing i would say is people say we have to talk about women altogether. if we are going to talk about women altogether we need to make sure a whole variety of us is represented in that conversation. >> i am going to be really fast. i agree with you i divided the book into a different classes because it occurred to me the way this phenomenon was unfolding was affecting women and especially american marriages of two classes not just differently but in completely opposite ways, a complete decline in marriage among the non college-educated and something different happening with women there and new forms of marriage and strengthening college educated and this was another way in which there was a growing class divide. i do think there are ways in which the woman is being a woman
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and that experience is similar and a lot of those issues are common. >> when i read your book and i hear your story i see and african-american story, we are discovering that there are men who are not able to find jobs or support their families. this is a story we have been living. that is why i say we all sort of have to be represented and we have to recognize these are not unique stories. >> time for one question. >> apologies to everybody in the audience. we have a microphone. >> i am adjust wondering if part of the problem with women getting equal pay or moving ahead is so few women take on
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science, technology, education and math. i went to school as an engineer in the 80s and was the only woman in the program. ten years later i still don't find any women who become save the engineers the way i did. is there a way to push the younger generation to take those harder courses and break those barriers? >> there is some work to do that and the educational system is stepping up to do that but then you come up against the situation they discovered at yale, that even though women have the same qualifications they are not treated equally. >> we have to encourage women. that is one area in technology and science where women have not made has significant a role as they have in law and medicine and it starts early.
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it starts in kindergarten where you have to encourage that. i saw the same study but be that as it may women make a lot more money -- [talking over each other] >> in the liberal arts. >> something you want to say? we have time for one more question. >> no, go ahead. the other people talk. >> sandra fluke went to orgasms subsidized by taxpayers dollars. may be of rush limbaugh had used the c word -- >> the have a question? >> sweden and norway, desirable countries chosen by you folks is very white of you. my question is would you like -- are we going to have some point in which hillary clinton advice is put into play, stop whining?
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>> everybody please. it is a really good question. >> i am far. we didn't hear a question. does someone have a question? >> i have a question. there is a way in which this conversation very much mirrors the conversation that men have about these issues or the issues that face the country that constantly make me feel left out of this because i am single. all of this conversation is directed towards families and family values and yet i believe the majority of women in the country today are actually single, many of them may be younger so you assume they will aspire after those kinds of lies, but i don't see you very much talking about single women
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and i do believe we should divide into different pieces but i don't often hear myself and other women like me reflected in these conversations. >> that is a good point but let me add a as a single woman you may have an aging grandmother. you may have a close friend, you may have our medical emergency. so a policy like paid maternity and family leave would be a great help to you and you are one stage of life. eventually you get older and things may change for you but we should be sensitive to what you are saying but it affects everybody. this is not just for married women, this is not just for mothers, not just for father's. this is to make a fair and equal society where we don't have to trade off taking care of the ones we love for her getting a
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paycheck. >> as a single woman with no children i find the need to find a home. the place where i can be secure and begin to feel like i belong to a community. i agree with you that's often the conversation is about people with children. my definition of what will get closer to equality does not assume we will all have children. >> my first chapter is about single women. i think the world has changed drastically for women before they get married because before you run into the realities we were talking about in the workplace, even though wage gap is a reality but it is remarkable what happened in the life of a single woman in so many ways culturally in terms of workplace opportunities and self conception and identity and